How to Overcome the Sales Leadership Challenges in Financial Services
With Mark Kenning, Head of Sales at Cigna Life Insurance
Show Notes
Mark Kenning is the Head of Sales at Cigna Life Insurance.
He has 26 years’ experience in the contact centre industry, and has had various roles involved with sales throughout that period.
Today, he shares how to overcome the sales leadership challenges in financial services, triggered by the Royal Commission in Australia, and the FMA’s review in New Zealand.
Mark’s Top 3 Tips
The customer has to be at the top of the pyramid, not the drive for remuneration (16:55).
Do the basics well. It’s easy to inadvertently drift away from doing them as you start doing new things in the business, and as new people come in (17:19).
Be ruthless with standards, but gracious with people. Treat your team with care and respect, at the same time as having high standards of the behaviour you expect of them (18:26).
You'll Learn:
The often overlooked process Mark’s agents follow when talking with customers, which ensures they create good customer outcomes (06:53).
The change which Mark is making, to empower staff but ensure compliance is being met (10:28).
The 3 steps Mark is taking, to motivate agents to create good customer outcomes (14:47).
Connect with Mark on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-kenning-4b551367/
Transcript
Blair Stevenson (00:00)
Welcome to the Secrets to Contact Center Success podcast, connecting you with the latest and greatest tips from the best and the brightest minds in the industry.
I am Blair Stevenson, founder of BravaTrak. Our Sales Leadership System enables contact centres to increase revenue and achieve their sales growth targets.
Today I'm joined by Mark Kenning, who's the General Manager of Partnerships and Business Development at Cigna Life Insurance. We're talking about overcoming the sales leadership challenges in financial services.
Mark, welcome along, great to have you here.
Mark Kenning (00:31)
Thank you for inviting me.
Blair Stevenson (00:33)
You're welcome. So just as a starting point, tell us a bit about your background and your expertise.
Mark Kenning (00:39)
I've been in call centres - even though my title might not indicate call centres - I've been in call centre management since the mid-nineties. I started out with the Bank of New Zealand, and then moved to Cigna to set up a sales outbound call centre, and been doing various roles involved with sales throughout that period.
Blair Stevenson (01:06)
Cool. So you've got history of financial services, and there may be some listeners who are listening to this who may not be aware of some of the changes and challenges that have been occurring for financial services. Particularly in terms of the legislative changes.
Can you just talk us through what's been happening in that space?
Mark Kenning (01:30)
There's been lots of evolution over the years, and if I think about the very first periods where we started outbounding and talking to customers, there wasn't a lot of legislation or requirements in New Zealand. It was a fairly free market, and over the years that's been tightening up.
About three years ago, there was a Royal Commission into banking and insurance in Australia. And that really put the cat amongst the pigeons. A lot of things were uncovered, a lot of focus went on are customers being treated with respect? Are they the most important in these organisations? Discussions around large incentives to hit targets.
So therefore, what was the most important thing to executives and managers and staff? Was it getting an incentive, or was it actually the customer?
With most of our banks being owned by Australian parent companies, that very quickly drifted through to New Zealand. And we started internally focusing on, "If this is what they're saying in the Royal Commission in Australia, how do we measure up against that?"
Specifically in New Zealand, the FMA (Financial Markets Authority) then started doing a real major review into insurers and how we operate, and there have been a lot of changes that have come through from that. Both in insurance and in the banking industry, over the last couple of years.
Blair Stevenson (03:13)
And I think one of the good things out of that, is there's been a shift from a sales leadership perspective from managing purely on results, to managing behaviour as well, which is a good shift.
I think the challenge is that now - certainly for frontline staff - there's a disconnect between the results that are expected and behaviour. And so that linkage is no longer really clear, which actually makes it somewhat difficult for frontline sales leaders to get the outcomes that they're seeking. And I'm hearing some senior leaders say the pendulum's gone too far.
Just talk us through some of the sales leadership challenges that you're facing, and how you're addressing those.
Mark Kenning (04:10)
You make a really good point. There's good and bad in everything, and we could all be negative about legislation. But actually, it's key driver is to really change the focus and make sure the customer is at the top of the pyramid, and not our staff and not the drive for remuneration. So a really good outcome. And I've seen some really great changes.
Part of the challenge has been - and I think it's partly a knee-jerk reaction - is, "Well let's just take out incentives." And that creates a lot of challenges, and it really requires quite a change in the way that you manage people. If you've been in an environment - or a sales environment in particular - for a long time, you'll know that incentives are an easy way out, right? It's the carrot. You dangle the carrot in front of somebody, and it's a lot easier to manage them.
So there's been a huge amount of pressure to change and start saying, "Well, how else do we motivate? How else do we drive our staff to achieve good outcomes?" And it's good outcomes for everyone, right? It's good outcomes for customers, definitely. They're at the top of the pyramid.
But you can't run a successful business if you're not profitable, or if it's not efficient or economic. So you still need efficiency. If you have a whole sales team having wonderful conversations, but resulting in no revenue, well that's not going to last. And eventually, you're not going to have those conversations at all. And therefore that will end that opportunity, or that business.
So it is getting that balance and finding a path. And I think most organisations are working through that as we go, just as we are. And to be honest, Blair, there's more change to come. There's more legislation coming in, which will further force us to rethink about "How do we navigate through this?"
Blair Stevenson (06:22)
Yeah, agreed. And I think one of the challenges with incentives, which is clear from the Australian Royal Commission, is that they create unintended outcomes, unintended consequences, which was the major issue.
You mentioned 'good customer outcomes', which I think from an ethical perspective, all of us want to achieve. But what are the signs that your people are actually providing good customer outcomes?
Mark Kenning (06:53)
Maybe if I just talk a little bit about what we might have accepted in the past, what the mind shift is. So you might've had a situation where someone makes a great sale, and they come and say, "That was really easy. I went through my script, the customer said, 'yes'," and great celebration.
Well actually, in real reflection, that's not a great sale. Because the questions we should be asking ourselves are, "Do we actually know why the customer purchased the product? Do we know it was the right product for the customer? Do we know that it's affordable, and they can maintain the premiums or the costs for the length or the life of the product?"
So lots of questions that we really should be asking, and checking off at the end of the call. That's what I see as 'good customer outcomes', is that we need to be asking and answering those questions to say, "The customer has purchased the product. I get off the call. And yes, I've had a good conversation where I now know that this product is the right product."
And you can do that via a couple of ways. You can have an advice process, where you go through elaborate advice. But not all products are suitable for such an involved conversation. But regardless, we should have answers to those questions, as opposed to in the past where we might've just said, "Easy sale. Great!"
So it really is quite a mind shift, and it's forcing us to really rethink, "How do we interact with customers? How do we answer those questions at the end?" And legislation is also forcing us do that as well. It is also saying that we've got to make sure that we can tick the box and make sure that we have sold the right products to the right customers.
Blair Stevenson (09:05)
Yeah, and fair enough too. And I think what you're saying really is that good customer outcomes are really deeply rooted in the sales consultant actually understanding what the customers' needs are, taking the time to actually do that investigation, understand what the customer's needs are, what are the constraints, for example, around affordability, and then selling to those needs.
Mark Kenning (09:34)
Absolutely. And when you say that out loud, you would say, "That's obvious." It is obvious, but it is often overlooked, in a sales environment where there are all sorts of pressure, not just driven by the carrot of incentives, but all sorts of pressures that mean that simple outcome is forgotten.
Blair Stevenson (10:01)
Fair enough too. I think role clarity is really critical for enhancing employee performance and job satisfaction. Thinking about that idea of having those more depth conversations to really understand the customer's needs, how have you gone about ensuring that your people, your sales consultants, actually understand the approach that you require them?
Mark Kenning (10:28)
We've been, in the past, quite a scripted environment. Scripts aren't great for open conversation with customers, they're good for a one-way dialogue where I'm downloading information. And then that also has to be weighed where you start talking about script compliance as well.
Because on one hand, you have a compliance environment, but actually you're forcing your staff to follow a script to make sure that they are compliant. So we still are reasonably script based, but we've certainly opened those scripts to ask far more questions, and certainly train our staff and coach our staff and support our staff to have open dialogue, so they can answer those key questions at the end of the call.
We're also going to pilot a conversation framework versus a script. So, yes, there are certain things that we want them to cover, but it is more of a framework, bullet points, versus, "Here are the words that we want you to say." And I think that will also help and support our team.
It's also about trust. Scripts don't lead to very trusting environment, if you think about it. Where we're really saying to someone, "We don't trust you to have a conversation. So we want you to read out what we've written for you."
So it's a two way street here. We have to trust our staff, we have to give them the right training and support, ongoing coaching. But we've going to trust them also, to actually have a conversation versus just reading from a piece of paper.
Blair Stevenson (12:28)
Yeah. And that change suggests a few things. Perhaps more training, perhaps a greater demand from a sales leadership perspective on the coaching activity that's occurring as well.
Mark Kenning (12:44)
Yeah, absolutely. The training has to be slightly different, but as you'll know, it's only when you get out there and start talking to customers that you start to embed behaviours. Generally you forget most of what you learn in a training program, and you get out there and you reinvent things.
So that ongoing coaching and support, and Team Leaders listening in, or sitting with their staff and actually observing what they're doing. That's the real key. That's where the rubber meets the road, to be honest with you.
Blair Stevenson (13:27)
Yeah. We both understand the challenges of getting behavioural change. You can say, "Hey, this is what we want you to do." But getting people then to enact that is not always easy.
I'm aware of some challenges in the wider financial services sector, and from a banking industry perspective. There's been massive demand for mortgages in recent times, and yet, interestingly, insurance sold by banks has dropped quite dramatically. Yet, it would be reasonable to assume that people still need insurance cover.
And what that says, potentially, is that bankers aren't necessarily having the right conversations with their customers around insurance. Despite the fact that they're probably expected to do so. And you could argue that the irony is that by not taking the time to understand their customer's insurance needs, they’re actually not necessarily creating good customer outcomes.
So I'm just curious from a sales leadership perspective, what are you doing to motivate frontline staff, to get that sustainable behaviour change you're looking for?
Mark Kenning (14:47)
It starts with making sure that everyone's on the same page, we're all on the same train, we're all going in the right direction. So being quite clear about what the expectations are. And making sure that the customer is at the top. Most people inherently like helping people. So making sure that we're here to help and support customers is really critical. I think that's really important.
And then I think it comes down to the Team Leaders that are interacting with the team every day. It's really about what are they doing. Using data, perception, listening in, and then being supportive and providing a positive coaching experience.
And it needs to be positive because that's part of the motivation. What you want is your team to be saying, "Great, I've got a coaching session. I really like those." Versus, "Oh, here comes my manager. I'm going to get a telling off," or, "I hate these sessions." So that's really, really critical.
And then I think a third point is celebration, making sure we're celebrating, and we're celebrating all aspects of what we need them to do. And to celebrate, you've got to observe. So those two things go together.
Blair Stevenson (16:29)
Cool. To wrap up, moving forward, what do you think are the top three sales leadership disciplines you're going to need a place to ensure that you meet your growth targets, while at the same time creating good customer outcomes?
Mark Kenning (16:48)
Good question. If only there there were only three, that would be great.
Tip #1 (16:55)
But some of the keys would be, one, the customer has to be at the top of the pyramid. Everyone needs to understand that. We need to make sure that it isn't just a focus on external pressures, but the customer is key. And everyone needs to be on that page.
Tip #2 (17:19)
I think the other thing is just doing the basics well. I've been in this business for a long time, and it sometimes feels a little bit like Groundhog Day. You feel like you're coming up with the answer, and then you suddenly stop and say, "Well, I probably had this answer a few years ago, and maybe a few years before that."
So that basics are really critical, and it is so easy to just inadvertently drift from doing the basics well as you innovate and as you do different things and new people come in. So going back to basics and asking, "Am I doing the basics really well?"
Blair Stevenson (18:02)
I think of it like driving a car, you've got to keep the foot on the accelerator if you want to keep moving. I think that's the same with the basics. You got to keep doing those basics well.
Mark Kenning (18:12)
Yup. And It's so easy to drift from that. As the world around you changes, you think, "Maybe the basics change." But actually, they don't at the end of the day.
Tip #3 (18:26)
And then I quite like the saying, I'm not quite sure where I got it from, but there's a saying about "Being ruthless with standards, but gracious with people." And I like that. We have to focus on standards, whether they're behaviours, whether they're the way you interact with customers, goals and targets.
You need to keep focused on that, but you need to do it in a way that is respectful of your team and your staff, and you treat them with care and respect. Even those that are not achieving and need help.
Blair Stevenson (19:05)
Yeah. And that goes back to the points you were making earlier about coaching and supporting your people, making those coaching conversations positive experiences, and celebrating the successes that people have or the improvements they make. Even if they're not quite where you want them yet.
Mark Kenning (19:25)
Yeah. And it's always been important. I don't think there's ever been a time that your staff and treating them well hasn't been important. But we're in an interesting economic environment at the moment.
There's a lot of pressure in recruitment right now in this post-pandemic environment. So you need staff who want to come to work. You need staff who enjoy coming to work, but you've also got to meet your own business goals. So you've got to find that balance, and creating a fun and enjoyable place to work is really key to that.
Blair Stevenson (20:06)
I totally agree. Brilliant. Mark, thank you very much. Really appreciate it. Well, that's it from us today. For listeners, you'll find the link to the show notes in the episode description below.
And if you'd like to connect with Mark on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-kenning-4b551367/), you'll also find the link to his LinkedIn profile in that description too.
Also, if you'd like to follow me on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevensonblair/), you'll find the link to my profile there as well.
Well, that's it from us today. Have a productive week.